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From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #229
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 10 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 229

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Money (was Re: Hand Computers)
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         3. Re: Visio for Deckplans
         4. Re: Corn Dogs.
         5. Re: Corn Dogs.
         6. Re: Corn Dogs.
         7. Re: The Iridium Standard
         8. Re: Corn Dogs.
         9. RE: The Iridium Standard 
        10. [none]
        11. Re: Currencies and Exchange
        12. Re: your mail
        13. Oh, those Whatevers!
        14. The Iridium Standard
        15. The Iridium Standard
        16. RE: The Iridium Standard 
        17. Re: Corn Dogs, Comin' Up Hot!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:12:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Money (was Re: Hand Computers)

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:56:05 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Tghe fibres would have to be a *lot* smaller than .5 mm. That's
> equivalent to 50 dpi. And 50 dpi printing is pretty damned ugly.
> Heck, my old RX-80 does .3 mm dots!

Oops!  Missed a decimal place  8-).  Try 0.05mm....

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 21:52 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

In-Reply-To: <199607090648.CAA28877@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
> Date: 8 Jul 96 16:15:06 MS Subject: A little rant
>  
> David Jaques-Watson said:
>> 5. Imperial Marines When I and my group read about "The Big Stick" (Imp
>> >Marine Grav APC) and the accompanying attitude ("just level the damn
>> block"), >we all said, "Oh! we see, they're *Americans*!"  - did we miss
>> something? 
>  
> Aaahh, not to start up a flame war or something, but could you please
> expound  upon or clarify what you meant by this?  I have noticed that

Presumably he was referring to the reputation the US armed forces have.
They tend to be seen as over-zealous, with a fondness for excessive
violence.

> The US military, largely thanks to an uninformed and occasionally biased
> media,  seems to have gotten this reputation in a larger way than other
> militaries.   This is patently false.  For an excellent example of typical
> US military  restraint, you need only look at the footage of the
> Serb-manufactured incident  from the past weekend.  The US forces involved
> were clearly in danger, but bent  over backwards to avoid unnecessary
> violence.  This was also the case in Iraq,  where the vast majority of
> Iraqi losses were prisoners peacefully taken and  humanely treated by US
> troops.

Very true. However, it's also true that the US military caused as many
Coalition causalties as the Iraqis.


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 15:31:05 -0600
Subject: Re: Visio for Deckplans

On 07/09/96 at 08:48 AM,  normf@wegener.com said:

>I would recommend Corel 3. It iis currently listing for about $100,
>but I have seen it for $69. 

We've got Corel 4 at work, and I bought a copy of Corel 3 for home use
sometime back.  It was for work purposes, but I never did much with
it.

>If you can run the CD version, the fonts and the vector-based clip
>art are worth it.  They have included symbol fonts for military
>symbols for those interested.

>I would be willing to send *.cdr files of the deck plans symbols I
>have made. 

I'm definately interested!  I'll pull the Corel CD back out and
reinstall it.

>It is not as intuitive as Visio, but the ability to move points on a
>line around is worth it.

This is the problem, from the limited playing I've did with CorelDraw,
it's as bad as any CAD program I've tried.  I'm sure it's perfectly
intuitive for people that are used to it, but for me anything more
complex than Windows Paintbrush is over my head.  <g>

>Perhaps we could come up with a *library* of sorts. I also have some
>of the TNE forms reproduced in Corel format. (I do not have ready
>access to a copier, but I do have a laser printer.)

It seems to me that Visio, Corel, and most other programs can import
and export to the same basic formats..isn't that right?  Symbols,
forms and backgrounds could be put into transportable formats and
shared.  Frankly, if it's in a format that can be displayed on the
PC's screen, it can be captured and converted.

I polled a number of folks that might be in my pbem and they *all*
prefer raster formats:  BMP, GIF, JPG, PCX.  Well actually, one poor
guy prefered ASCII.  <g> Nobody said they could handle vector
drawings, so no matter what I use to draw maps and deckplans, I'll
have to convert them before sending them out.

Last night I spent a couple of hours playing with a friend's hand
scanner.  He got it from SAMS for under $100.  With a scanner I could
draw the deckplans on paper and *scan* the darn things in!  Finally
finding a use for that 'B' in drafting I got way back in high school.
<g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: William White <whitew@eden.rutgers.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 17:31:46 EDT
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs.

To humans, young Hivers apparently resemble
corn dogs.  So when a Hiver delegation 
toured the Shattered Imperium during the
Hard Times, some people seemed to think 
that the Hivers were offering them hors
d'oeuvres.

At least, that's what I gathered from
_Survival Margin.

Peace,
Bill White

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:11:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs.

I wonder if there will ever be any competition for the Corn Dog stand at
Coney Island from a Hiver Lavae stand across the way...

Heck, I haven't been back there in so long, they may not even sell
corndogs anymore...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:25:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs.

Quoth William White:
> To humans, young Hivers apparently resemble corn dogs.  So when a Hiver 
> delegation toured the Shattered Imperium during the Hard Times, some 
> people seemed to think that the Hivers were offering them hors d'oeuvres.

It wasn't Hiver larvae that looked like corn dogs: it was an annelid which
was a major and economical food source for Hiver client species (and
Hivers? Do they still eat only fungus?), which the Ithklur particularly
enjoyed fried in batter.  Corn dogs were thus welcomed as a "slice of home"
in the midst of a long diplomatic excursion through foreign parts.  The
Ithklur felt so comfortable they even tried to participate in some combat
ballet....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:45:43 -0500
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> wrote:

>So, a compramise must be reached. We know that Cleon and his successors 
>got a kick out of Iridium, so why not make  the Imperial Credit = 1 gram 
>of Iridium?

Well, I could get out my economics book and give you the technical reasons
why most countries are off the gold standard, but....

Look at it this way.  What happens if the fledgling Imperium suddenly makes
a major iridium strike in some planetoid belt, causing the price of iridium
to plummet?  What happens if the supply of iridium is too restricted for the
needs of the economy?  This is even more likely to hurt a small Imperium than
a large one.  Bad news.  Let the credit "float".  

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>


------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs.

Charles,

	I never said the CBTM was edible! :)  Although you could
possibly wrap it around a hot dog :).

	It would probably be lower in fat, but a bit on the toxic
side. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:32:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: The Iridium Standard 

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 09 Jul 1996 17: 45:43 CDT
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 19:32:24 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> wrote:
: 
: >So, a compramise must be reached. We know that Cleon and his successors 
: >got a kick out of Iridium, so why not make  the Imperial Credit = 1 gram 
: >of Iridium?
: 
: Well, I could get out my economics book and give you the technical reasons
: why most countries are off the gold standard, but....

I agree with this.  If we look at the Bretton Woods/gold standard, when
you pegged one currency to a metal standard, all of the other currencies
were then pegged against that currency.  So, though trading, arbitrage,
and balance of payments, a smaller trading partner could actually ask
for a significant amount of metal (since gold and silver notes are
eligible for a one-to-one exchange).  This severely depreciates the
pegged currency and can cause severe depressionary effects.  This is
especially true if the trading currencies don't hold their peg against
the "standard."

Okay, so I'm an econ major--sue me!  8)

To put it in really simple terms, the amount of money running around is
way more than what any country has in it's metal reserves (both gold and
silver).  This is because many times countries need to print more money
(even though this is inflationary).  It's much better to just stick the
the comparative value of the currency (2 dollars = 1.6 pounds = 2 DM)
etc.  With electronic banking, there's no need to physically exchange
anything, and you're basically exchanging on the value of a country's
economy and not how much they have in the bank.

: Look at it this way.  What happens if the fledgling Imperium suddenly makes
: a major iridium strike in some planetoid belt, causing the price of iridium
: to plummet?  What happens if the supply of iridium is too restricted for the
: needs of the economy?  This is even more likely to hurt a small Imperium than
: a large one.  Bad news.  Let the credit "float".  

This probably wouldn't happen.  Look that the diamond cartel.  If the
amount of diamonds that are mined were released to the market instead of
being held back to create an artifically high price because of demand,
cubic zircona would be more expensive than diamonds (well, this is
stretching it a little, but you get the idea).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 00:06:00 UTC 0000
Subject: [none]

> I thought I read somewhere that Traveller used "hard currency" designed
> around the old Play-Doh press you used to see on TV.

Actually, the concept behind the Imperial hard currency comes from
an ancient Roman technique for mass-producing "junk" jewelry.
The artisan would make a bundle of colored glass rods in a particular
pattern, fuse them together and slice off dozens of identical brooches
or whatever.

Marc or Frank or me (I forget who after 12+ years) thought this was
a novel approach to currency. I don't recall ever specifying a .5mm
thickness for the individual fibers...that's a lot thicker than I had
in mind. Perhaps the typesetter's slipped a decimal place or two.

Derek Stanley wrote:

>> Harold Hale Wrote:
>>  The Hivers apparently that it would be very humorous if they took some
>>larvae (or whatever they really were) that looked and tasted like a corn
>>dog and past it off on their unsuspecting human hosts as the real thing.
>
>Actually the Hiver Corndog is a parasitic worm that through pure
>conicidence when prepared looks just like a corndog.  A number of human's
>ate the things and when the Hiver's explained what they were, well you
>can guess the natural result.

Hmmm...when I asked Dave, he said that the consumables in question were
something akin to roasted sea cucumbers (actually, compared to what the
Hivers normally eat, this is rather appetizing). Did he change his mind?

LKW


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:33:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Currencies and Exchange

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> My .2c on the matter.
> 
> The Impirium in year 0 will be imposing a new callender for all member 
> worlds, as well other Imperial standards. One of which will be th value 
> of the Imperial credit. 

Oh, I hope not!

> The situation with member states using this new monetary system will be 
> chaotic, mainly because of communication lags. The system we have now 
> (where currency is speculated on in terms of percieved supply and demand 
> of different currency) is truely unworkable (news that can have influence 
> on currency prices will be a minimum 7 days old, progressing longer as 
> you leave Capital/Core). 

What you are saying here has merit, but . . .


> So, a compramise must be reached. We know that Cleon and his successors 
> got a kick out of Iridium, so why not make  the Imperial Credit = 1 gram 
> of Iridium?

I believe there are better ways of handling currency besides pegging them 
to a rare metal.  There are so many disadvantages to that...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:54:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: your mail

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> Actually, the concept behind the Imperial hard currency comes from
> an ancient Roman technique for mass-producing "junk" jewelry.
> The artisan would make a bundle of colored glass rods in a particular
> pattern, fuse them together and slice off dozens of identical brooches
> or whatever.

Neat!  Thanks for sharing that with us.  It's always nice to know the 
thinking behind the decisions (large, small, and in-between) that shaped 
our favorite RPG. :)

If you can spend a few more moments with us, I've a couple of questions 
for you.  First, in reading JTAS I have noticed that a great deal of the 
material was produced by a small number of people (JTAS remains one of my 
favorite RPG items to re-read).  Did the articles produced by the main 
contributors (including yourself, of course) tend to reflect the nature 
of the campaigns they ran?  For instance, one article in particular that 
I enjoyed very much was "Speculation Without a Starship," which was 
written by you and appeared in issue 5.  Did your campaigns have an 
emphasis on trade?  Or were the articles done in a more systematic 
fashion? 

My other question is one that I've wondered about for quite some time.  
Who wrote the Traveller News Service section?  How far in advance were 
TNS-announced events planned?  And, did the folks at GDW play the events 
announced out before writing about them (for example, the events leading 
up to the Fifth Frontier War)?  [Oops...I asked more questions than I 
said I would...sorry!:)]


Thank you in advance for your time,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 20:52:25 -0600
Subject: Oh, those Whatevers!

On 07/09/96 at 09:52 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew
Boulton) said:

Andrew, David, Steve how about not starting this?

There are unfavorable misconceptions and stereotypes about *every*
nation and its people, and we don't need to exchange them on this
list..do we?

I was born and raised in the United States, in the *deep* south of the
US.  You want to tell me what I'm like?  Stereotype anyone?

But Andrew, your address is UK, and we all know about you English!
David is from AU, uh huh, we know all about them too.

See?  

This sort of thing won't get any of us anywhere, so how about just
stopping it before it gets out of hand. 

To quote someone who's name I won't mention, "Can't we just get
along?"


Eris, 
  in the unfamiliar role of peacemaker
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 19:42:39 -0600
Subject: The Iridium Standard

On 07/09/96 at 05:45 PM,  Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
said:

>Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> wrote:

>>So, a compramise must be reached. We know that Cleon and his successo
>>got a kick out of Iridium, so why not make  the Imperial Credit = 1 g
>>of Iridium?

>Let the credit "float".  

I agree a floating Imperial credit is probably best, but I also like
the idea of putting some Iridium in each Imperial Credit.  It makes a
nice touch, what with the Iridium Throne and all.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 20:29:38 -0600
Subject: The Iridium Standard

On 07/09/96 at 07:32 PM,  That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu> said:

>So, though trading, arbitrage, and balance of payments, a smaller trading
>partner could actually ask for a significant amount of metal...

An example of ?Gresham's Law?..."bad money drives out good."

>With electronic banking, there's no need to physically exchange
>anything, and you're basically exchanging on the value of a country's
>economy and not how much they have in the bank.

However, there are complications in relation to the Imperium scenario.

First, there's communication lag.  Transactions in one part of the
Imperium are tied *very* loosely to the rest of the empire.  It would
be impossible to float the credit across hundreds of parsecs and not
have its value vary from place to place, and time to time.  The cargo
of boojam you bought at Lois IV for 14cr/ton is worth 14cr/ton on Lois
IV...on Johnson III it can be sold for 21cr/ton.  Is this a difference
in the *worth* of boojam...or is it a localized and transient
difference in the *worth* of the credit?  Are there too many credits
piled up on Johnson chasing available goods?  

Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile empires
rather than capitalism.  Similar empires in our past where strongly
tied to a centralized authority working on a gold standard. Their goal
was to exploit the periphery pulling wealth into the center from where
the oligarchy ruled.

Thirdly, once firmly established the 3rd Imperium's trade was almost
all internal.  Trade with various nations was never emphasized.  Sure
there was some of it, but I don't think it was major.  Because of
this, the Imperium might have thought it could afford to fix the value
of the credit.

Therefore, I theorize that the Imperium didn't float it's currency,
but rather based it on a 'gold standard'..although iridium is
tempting.  <g> Perhaps the "long night" can be explained as a massive
economic depression brought on by the contact with the Terran
Confederation.  Certainly, the "long night" didn't hit for hundreds of
years after contact, and after the Solomani takeover in fact, but the
Imperium is HUGE and it would take centuries for the effects to spread
and rebound.  Even the conquest of the 1st Imperium could be blamed on
sweeping economic destabilization brought on when the inflexible
Vilani ran into the Solomani.

Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.  Travel and
communication times are just too long.  It would have to *very* loose,
more Commonwealth (if not Common Market) than Empire.  I'd say a few
sectors would be about the largest *maintainable* size, maybe a couple
of months to travel from an edge to the center.

How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:28:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: The Iridium Standard 

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20: 29:38 MDT
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:28:13 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: However, there are complications in relation to the Imperium scenario.
: 
: First, there's communication lag.  Transactions in one part of the
: Imperium are tied *very* loosely to the rest of the empire.  It would
: be impossible to float the credit across hundreds of parsecs and not
: have its value vary from place to place, and time to time.  The cargo

This may not be an issue.  I'll explain later...

: Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile empires
: rather than capitalism.  Similar empires in our past where strongly

I'm not sure if either model is very accurate.  I think the best way to
think of the Imperium is at a trade union (similar to the EU/EC).  It's
many smaller economies that are treated as one big on when dealing with
other large economies.

: Thirdly, once firmly established the 3rd Imperium's trade was almost
: all internal.  Trade with various nations was never emphasized.  Sure

That's true, and this is why I was saying that communication lag doesn't
matter.  Trade takes place between worlds.  Each world has it's own
currency and economic strength.  Now, the basis of how strong the local
world's economy is is what's pegged against the Imperial Credit.  This
is similar to the EuroDollar.  The Imperium creates a common currency
that makes transactions between member states easier.

So, an Imperial credit is an Imperial credit is an Imperial credit.
It's there and it in effect is the standard.  It's just a standard of
accounting.  The real pegging and floating comes from the member worlds
who want their currency to buy more Imperial credits and thus be worth
more when trading with other worlds.

The reason for this is also quite simple.  You start withn 11 worlds and
then work your way up to 11,000.  That's a lot of iridium that you'll
have to find.  8)

: Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
: the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.  Travel and

Yeah, but then it wouldn't be such a fun game if we didn't suspend our
disbelief just a little.

: How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>

But don't forget that if I accelerate my 1Cr chip at near relativistic
speeds, I can probably take out the Regina Stock Market.  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:53:34 +1000
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs, Comin' Up Hot!

On 9 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> >     Er, sorry for being so thick, but what's a corn dog?  And why are 
> >     references to it so hilarious (or not) in Aliens of the Rim?
> >     
> >     Cheers,
> >     Liam
>      
> A corn dog is just a hot dog on a stick, covered with corn batter and fried.  
> Really nasty things, but every now and then an uncontrollable urge comes along 
> and I am forced to buy and eat some quantity of the things.  I've seen them in 
> Mexico also, but not in Europe anywhere.  What other countries have these 
> things?

In New South Wales, we call them Battered Savs, and they are quite 
popular at the Royal Easter Show (Thay also can be called Dagwoods)


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #229
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